Gardens That Do Good with Sean James

Hi, this is the Garden Shift and I'm your host, Tina Cesaroni.

In this episode I'm joined by Sean James.

Sean is a horticulturalist and master gardener and an eco landscape expert.

0:16

He understands that nature needs guardians.

Listen in as we talk about public pleasing gardens, gardens he creates that do good.

The episode is jam packed with plant choices and where to go to get them.

I hope you enjoy this episode.

Hi, Sean, welcome to The Garden Shift

0:39

Hey, how you doing?

I'm so glad to have you here.

And you know, it's funny because when I was reading through and reminding myself of all the stuff you do, I didn't, I didn't know where to start.

I mean, we all know you're an eco landscape expert, but I really, what I was reading your bio.

0:54

I really love the fact that you've won Garden Communicator of the Year because I think that really is representative of who you are as a as a professional landscaper, a master gardener and just an overall really fantastic person.

Thank you, I have fun doing what I do and I do a lot of it.

1:11

So how long have you worn that eco landscape expert title?

Because I know you're very involved in and a member of Landscape Ontario, but was there a shift there?

Were you moved away from more traditional stuff and and thought you know what the ecological gardening is kind of the way I need to go here.

1:29

I wouldn't say that there was a shift so much as there was a slow evolution and a convergence.

Maybe convergence is a good word.

My first memory was a native plant memory dragging my dad dropped into the woods and cold water Ontario to identify a ghost type.

And I was bless him.

1:46

He came along, you know, followed me out into the woods, came back, got a book and we looked it up.

I have my first garden to play with when I was 6 and I was moving stuff out of the woods and into the garden, which across America and now but that's different times.

And when I realized that this was a decent profession for me, I just automatically favored the plants that I knew having grown up surrounded by nature in Campbellsville near Crawford Lake.

2:09

That's was just the direction I headed in.

And then slowly as I did more of that and and focused more on the native plants and became even more, I was one of those weird little kids that collected insects.

I still do, but with pictures.

So that sort of wove into what I was doing and then the public started being interested and liking more and more of that my speeches because they do a tremendous amount of public speaking about 50 gigs a year, those woven and I started to see more of the demand.

2:41

So I started putting more emphasis on it and then people started asking more.

So maybe that's why convergence is a good word because the the 2 came together, but we're incredibly busy and actually apparently finally making money.

My dad would have called me a 40 year overnight success.

You know, I, I, I, I just see, I tell people that, you know, I'm, I'm not brilliant.

3:03

I just ended up in the right place at the right time with the right skill set.

Everybody wants what we do now and there are more and more of us, which is wonderful from from garden groups of Master Gardeners to actual professionals.

Sometimes those are the same thing.

People really are, are gravitating toward making a difference with their gardens.

3:21

They realize it.

And COVID really pushed us over the edge.

Not only were people looking at the back window going I hate this, they were realizing that nature is important and that they could make a difference with it.

And that's.

That's that's a big thing too.

That sentiment of beautiful gardens that do good that you use is is really right on.

3:42

And I think, like you said, with with COVID, everyone looking out their backyards and not only not happy with what they saw, but when all of nature started, you know, arriving because everything was so quiet, because humans finally started to, you know, hunker down and stay away from, you know, nature.

4:00

I think that's when there was a real interest.

And I know as Master Gardeners, we're getting more and more questions about ecological, ecological gardening and nature.

And I think, you know, I could go back to before 2000 when I first heard about you and you were, I kind of, I kind of made the association of rain gardens with you because I think you were really sort of on the forefront right of that.

4:25

But again, I think.

Business partner in the rain gardens that was he did his thesis on it.

He's a water resource engineer and I helped him with the plant list.

So I ended up being the literal and figurative old men in the business.

I think that's something that with our changing climate must be so important.

4:45

And I've watched a lot of your videos and I actually did a course that you that you taught a while back and I can't remember the name of it, but it was on the rain gardens.

It was.

Who was it sponsored?

By maybe Green Venture I yeah, I remember that, but I, I only remember plants.

5:00

I don't remember details about things like that.

So I.

Think, yeah, there was another contractor there and they really got into, you know, the differences between a bog and a rain garden.

And anyways, it was really informative for me for when I was speaking to the public.

5:17

So what are what are your clients asking for now?

Are they still asking for their traditional plants?

Are they asking are they interested in something a little bit more ecologically significant?

And how much education do you have to give them?

Or are they coming to the table already knowing what's important?

5:34

Most people are coming to the table with a fair bit of knowledge already.

There are different routes to us.

The municipalities and conservation authorities are pushing rainwater handling.

So some people come through that.

All of our fall this year was interesting landscapes where people had a landscape that they liked, but they were a bit and that they had done themselves, but they were a bit meadowy.

5:57

And the public would walk by and say things, horrible things like this used to be such a nice garden, awful thing to say to someone.

Yeah.

So a lot of our jobs were blowing apart the really cool gardens that they had and putting them back together in a more public pleasing fashion with more drifts of plants, large groupings and pairing texture together.

6:19

So bold, feathery and sword shaped so that people could see that it was pretty.

And then and then focusing on seasonal vignettes scattered through the landscape.

So that was a lot of our work this fall, which was really interesting, but also really artistically challenging, which I like.

6:37

And, and that seems to be a lot of what people are focusing on when it comes to us new builds.

It depends on their drive.

We all have, you know, specific folk.

I, we, we met a, a wonderful couple in the fall and they have a, a large property down in Oakville, right on Lakeshore.

6:55

She's a birder.

So her garden, everything in her head is focused on, on birds.

I can do that, you know, I, I can focus on berries and things that bring hummingbirds in and so on.

And I, I was explaining to her, so here's where the education comes in that if you really want birds, then you want host plants for caterpillars because then you'll get them nesting on your property because they, they feed, you know, 96% of birds feed their chicks caterpillars.

7:23

Mama tickety needs 6000 caterpillars per one clutch of young.

So host plants equals birds as well, not just berries and things framing birds.

So it it's interesting to see what's driving people our way.

What about water problems with these deluges that we're getting of rain?

7:42

Like, are you getting these sort of this, my gardens not working, I'm getting flooding or yeah, you see that happening now with the changing climate.

We are, unfortunately, a lot of people aren't coming to us for that.

There are great people that they're going to, like Michael Albanese, who wrote a great book called Scrape Shaped Plant on rain gardens.

8:02

He's getting a lot of that work.

I have hardscaping friends, so patios and stuff like that who are getting work from that where there's sort of creating underground infiltration areas.

Most people just think of filling it in or getting it away.

8:18

Now, having said that, every garden I do has a ring garden component to it on one garden didn't have a rain garden per se, but the whole garden was a rain garden.

The whole property captured the rain and soaked it in.

It was raised on all the edges.

And I've been asked about, you know, do I sell that sort of thing?

8:34

And, and I, I say, well, if people, they said what, you know, what, if people don't want eco, well, I give them.

So they just don't know it.

If you ask people who don't know about rain gardens, well, they don't know what a potential is.

They don't know what's native.

For instance, you know, they don't know what most plants that are native are.

8:51

And you know, if, if you ask someone who doesn't know about rain gardens, if they want to rain garden, they just say no because they, they default to no because they used to sales people taking advantage of them.

But if I just put it in the, the design and they say, what's this area here?

Well, that's a ringer.

What's that?

9:07

You know, enthusiastically tell them, and it's mostly native species, just for some reason, our, our natives handled that situation well.

And it's good for pollinators and it's really pretty.

And oh, that sounds amazing.

So you just just do it and, and people are happy to have it.

And then when you explain that, you know, it solves down the street and flooding problems and helps protect our waterways and the biodiversity that's in them and cooling and cleaning and predicting your own property.

9:31

If it's done right, then then people are, you know, it's, it's really a no-brainer.

And if it's cheaper, everybody's got that swale across the back of their property to fill it in, never mind the fact that it's illegal message with everyone else's drainage to fill it in costs money.

But if you just strip the sod and then plant cool things like silky Dogwood and great blue lobelia and so on, marsh marigolds and all kinds of stuff, great plants, then you don't have to mow it.

9:55

That's, that's a win.

And it solves the problem and, and is something that people are going to look and go, that's pretty.

And, you know, you're, you're all winning there.

Well, what about clay soil?

No, there's great plants for clay soil.

What about sandy soil?

All kinds of plants for sandy soil.

10:12

Wouldn't.

Yeah, your depth of knowledge is a real asset for your clients too.

I know that you were instrumental in the Grow Me Instead Guide, which I have on on my website because it's it's so it's it's a great little guide.

I wish somebody was printing it.

It is available as a PDF.

10:28

They are.

They're printing it again.

I was at Landscape Ontario’s Congress last week and I was all excited because I went to the their booth and and there it was and I was, I was very, I don't know, ordering on smug, flipping through it with my friend of mine going.

That's what I meant pictures.

That's what other pictures.

10:44

And now they've like they've they've it's forever evolving, right?

So now they have, I don't do you know Ruby Lace, Honey Locust.

It's just a beautiful plant.

It's a little slower growing, so it's a little more city sized.

It's burgundy leafed, so it's a wonderful alternative to Crimson king maples and it plays well with others.

11:04

It fertilizes the plants around.

It's got dappled shade so it's easy to garden under.

So that's that's in the new new version.

Who's Who's revised it?

Landscape Ontario is revising it.

No, it's Invasive Plant Council I.

Believe so.

11:20

Maybe we can get our Master Gardeners and some copies for our advice clinics.

Talk to them about producing bookmarks again.

There was Once Upon a time that I financed the bookmarks and got my logo on it because I just thought we need bookmarks instead of the whole book, just a bookmark that says here's the web page, go look for it because it's all, it's all there.

11:41

And then there's, you know, not 0 carbon footprint, but you're not, there's no trees involved.

Because it is such a wonderful guide and it's so easy.

I'm actually just updating my presentation right now called Fighting the Triffids about invasive species and their alternatives.

11:56

Crazy yeah.

And it's it's the the size of it was great.

You can literally put in your back pocket if you're going for a walk on a trail or something.

So anyways, I that is a PDF on on the website and I'll put that in the show notes.

So if anybody wants to have a look at it, it's it lists invasive and it gives you something to grow instead to make sure you know how to identify the invasives and it gives you two or three options for really good native plants to grow instead.

12:22

Just getting back to.

There's always better plants.

There's always better plants.

Just getting back to what we were talking about water and rain gardens.

I've been thinking about plants that have the name swamp in their name, like swamp milkweed.

Plants that are supposed to be only their feet wet or only pond side or only anyways.

12:42

So when I was going through the the list of rain garden plants, I'm thinking what happens when we get like 60 days of drought?

Are they just resilient enough that they can survive?

How does that work?

Well, two things.

Common names are common names.

12:57

We, we have conventions for what we call them, but I think it's up to us to new things.

So I call it marshmallow queed, which sounds much nicer than spontaneo queed.

Also, a lot of what makes plants swamp tolerant is not so much that the flood tolerant, but they're tolerant of low soil oxygen because swamps don't have a lot of oxygen in them.

13:18

It's stagnant.

So they'll do very well.

That to me, not always, but generally speaking, swamp equals clay tolerant as well.

And a lot of these plants, if you went out to the bee sweet nature, you would see on the on the side of the house in a raised garden, Lindera benzoin, which is spice Bush like it's, it shouldn't.

13:38

The textbooks would tell you it shouldn't grow there, but there it is high and dry and doing brilliantly.

Marsh milkweed does beautifully in a regular garden.

So a lot of these plants are much more tolerant than than we are that the books give them credit for.

And as a friend of mine said, plants can't read.

They they don't know that the textbook says that they can't live.

13:56

It's like Wiley Coyote reading about gravity.

And then the next thing is that the, the plant list for rain gardens is one of the more limited plant lists because the plants have to be flood tolerant, but also drought tolerant.

They have to be able to stand, you know, a 2 month drought.

14:13

And they do, which is remarkable.

Like for instance, one of the more unusual ones is the marsh mallow, the Hibiscus moscheutos.

And it's bulletproof.

You know, I've, I've got it in places where it never gets water and it's lovely and it, it's, it, yes, it is flood tolerant.

14:34

You know where it grows in the wild?

A lot of it, A lot of where things grow in the wild has to do with competition too.

I live here because nobody else can.

That doesn't mean that they can't live elsewhere.

So that you just mentioned our native hibiscus, right?

Swamp Mallow.

So I've heard people now making hedges out of it because it is so wonderful.

14:55

And yeah, so it grew at my, you know, my mom's property going to talk about that the SEC because you were so wonderful to come out and do a consult there.

But I got a little one from a friend, a little seedling of swamp that our native hibiscus, and it did nothing for two years in her garden.

15:11

And then all of a sudden this big chunky woody stemmed came up and I'm like, I found the tag.

I dug around because it was there and it and that's what it was.

And now it is it's it's 5 feet across.

It's absolutely gorgeous.

And it is really slow to come up, so you have to remember where you put it.

15:29

But those pink flowers on it are yeah, those pink flowers are amazing on them.

So have you is there, do they come in different colours or do we just have the one native?

Do you know?

No, well, the straight species versus cultivars versus hybrids.

15:45

So there the street species is is pink.

There are certainly variations in it.

Most of the ones that we can buy out there are hybrids.

Although I must say that things still do eat the leaves.

So I never catch the meeting the leaves, but it seems to still be food for biodiversity and and pollinators.

16:04

There are specialist pollinators like the Andrina bees, but they're they're happy if it's got pollen.

So as far as natives go, there is a true native.

It's tough to tell which of its offspring are hybrids or selections or breeding, because that's sort of the three ways that we might get different offspring from them.

16:25

With the grasses, for instance, we're not breeding the grasses to look that way.

Someone's walking through a Meadow or walking through their nursery and go, boy, that one straight up and down or that one's got really nice fall colour.

And so we're selecting those as opposed to breeding them.

16:42

So, you know, it's, it's interesting to think about.

Or you can just go simple and go with the straight species because they love it.

I kind of have to think about both sides of it because I want these guys that we need people to uptake these ideas.

So these gardens must be beautiful.

So I kind of, I do play fast and loose with the true native thing if someone wants that.

17:03

Exactly.

But we did a lovely job in Dundas with lovely people and they want pure native.

There was 1 exception.

We used Autumn Revolution, Bittersweet instead of the straight species because the auto revolution has male and female reproductive parts on it.

17:18

So you always get the berries.

It's much more floor efforts, it's much more fuller, larger barriers.

It's just quantum leap better and it still does the same job.

But everything else was was pure native.

So that's that's what she wanted.

That's what we gave.

And I suppose one of the other projects was the same.

17:35

Another one was sort of all over the place.

It was there was even non-native things.

There's something non-native on a job site, but non invasive.

I'm not going to throw it out.

I'm going to probably still find a home for it.

Doug really doesn't love hostas, but the truth is there are lots of non butterfly things that feed on hostas and they're good for, isn't good for slides and slides are good for toads and snakes and so on.

17:56

So I kind of look at every plant and do the math on it and as long as it isn't evil, then I'm I'm going to see if I can use it there.

However, again, back to the invasive thing, we're trying and a lot of people are trying, kudos to the world.

We are really trying to get invasives under control.

18:13

It's wonderful to see.

It really is.

You know, you were really sensitive to the fact that when you came to do a consult for my mom that you probably saw we showed up, that she was a traditional gardener.

And because I'm constantly talking when I'm there and preaching, I'm bringing you in to sort of do some eco gardening there.

18:34

And the end result was that we brought back a tennis court to nature and you recommended so many amazing native trees and shrubs.

All the trees that you recommended for her were native, and I fell in love with Sassafras and Bitternut Hickory and so many things that I had never been on my radar before.

19:00

But then you also recommended this shrub border that I've been working on with her with all of these absolutely fantastic romantic shrubs, lilacs and wigilia and stuff that I think when you walked around, you noticed that the way she gardened.

Anyways, we're still working on it.

19:17

It looks amazing.

So I do have to make special mention of the Beauty of Moscow Lilac because Oh my gosh, that was a beautiful bloom finally bloomed.

Even nurserymen considered the best.

Made her so happy.

19:32

And isn't that what gardening supposed to do?

Bring absolute joy.

I visited those trees weekly as they are growing and this is now.

This will be their third spring.

I've only lost one out of I think about 28-30 that we planted.

So I thought that was pretty good because we.

19:49

Yeah.

And.

And they bring me joy.

I mean, I'm like taking copious pictures.

I'm going to make this up a mini forest.

We've planted some more Cedars in there which which is nice to fill it out.

And we've had lots of deer browsing, but that's OK.

20:05

That's what happens, right?

So they have taken the tops off some of my trees, but they're all going to butt out again, I'm sure, right?

Tell me they're going to cut out again.

I mean, they're used to it, right?

But that's what happens in nature.

So, and where that's, I mean, I have a squirrel thing here that, you know, I, I love the birds and I have 9 bird feeders outside my window and I'm, I'm right now I'm looking at all the little feathery friends out there and then I see the squirrels stealing the incredibly expensive, I paid $67 for that bag of seed.

20:35

Get out of there.

It's not for you.

But that's nature.

You know, we, we enjoy what we can and we tolerate the rest that there are places that, you know, you can't plant acts because of the bunnies, right?

And it seems to vary.

They have very specific tastes depending on geography.

20:53

I, I, I think we have places where you can't plant Liatris, but they just raise it to the ground and the same, another place that'll be Asters and then other places they'll, they'll demo it for one year and then the board with that food bring something new.

It's very interesting.

21:09

Did I notice last year in the fall, the late fall, that you were having a plant sale or did I imagine that?

No, you did not imagine it.

This is sort of a a new thing for us.

We've, we've been building a little bit more every year and I can't stop propagating cool things and things that no one else has like arrow leafed aster, your asylum, lovely, lovely plant.

21:31

And we just, we went to see there's a whole bunch of stuff the other day and, and, and we have lots of stock.

We'll see what lives through the winter.

But we, we cover it with an insulation tarp and straw.

Well, let the mice do what they will and voles.

But yes, we, we have one in the spring.

We have one in the fall.

21:47

People can read about those on our Facebook page.

We also do so when there's enough people who are interested, we go on a tour around the property where north of Campbellsville and, and so people come up, we have 8 acres of nature with ponds down the centre.

22:02

So there's lots of stuff to talk about whenever we go for a walk and we see amazing things.

One time we saw Green Heron, we've seen Osprey.

So yes, people people do that.

If they search Shawn James Consulting, you can find me on practically any social media.

22:17

So we post about stuff there and I got to get back to doing the newsletter because that that that is a way of promoting things too.

And people can sign up for that on the website that we're going to work.

I found an old copy of your of your newsletter when I was going through my e-mail and there was a historical fact about why we call cedars cedars commonly, and I thought that was super interesting.

22:42

When they sent the wood, they only sent the wood back to Europe 1st and it smells like the true Cedrus cedar, like cedar of Lebanon and on the flag in jazz.

And so they just called Eastern red cedar, which is a juniper Cedars.

And the proper name for our swamp cedar, which is what most people call it, is Eastern Arbor Vitae, which means tree of life because the native peoples taught The Pioneers how to make a, a horrible tea with it that's high in vitamin C so help fight scurvy that they were suffering from.

23:12

Like, there's all kinds of neat garden history that goes with that sort of thing.

Alan Armitage has a couple of books on why plants are named what they're named.

One of them is called the of, of Naked Ladies and Forget Me Nots.

And they're, they're great books.

They're really entertaining.

Yeah, Yeah.

23:28

They've got a bunch of.

Good stuff.

So you're getting back to your social media.

I love your walks with your dog.

Is that's your?

That's your property that you're talking about, right?

Yeah, yeah, we're just renting here.

But we are gloriously lucky.

23:44

It is just a a biodiversity laboratory.

Yeah.

I knew my jazz, but every day there's there's new cool things to to talk about.

There was a spider couple of days ago trucking across the ice and like, what are you doing out here?

24:00

Just like incredible every winter.

Summer.

I could tell how big that spider was, but I'm like OK, I'm gonna scroll past that.

That was a big spider.

Sleeping.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh, yeah.

There's you know what?

You're Instagram.

I'm trying to, you know, too much social media because as we all know, it takes up so much of our time.

24:19

But I have to say, Instagram is, is fantastic.

The other video that I was I really liked was you're dividing giant perennials and you were dividing.

What were you dividing?

It was massive.

It was truly a giant perennial.

I think that was in Aruncus Goatsbeard

24:36

And yes, it was huge.

Yeah, yeah, he he put up a fight.

So I'm hoping you had someone to help you take that out of the ground because my goodness.

I got another ground myself.

I had someone filming for me.

That was great.

And I know that you have really more extensive videos on your YouTube as well, right?

24:53

Yeah, and we're getting really good traction.

I got a notification the other day that one of them had 25,000 views and other ones had 44,000 views.

I don't even look.

And then my I have a videographer helps me create some of the content and he was scrolling through.

You realize this, right?

Like what?

25:08

You're kidding.

I don't really think about people watching them just make them and then they find out that, you know, 10s of thousands of views.

So we're, we're getting a good voice, which is good, which means that we can talk about important issues and get the word out about them that the YouTube is a great platform for that.

25:25

And I, I do talks for an organization out of Wisconsin, but we do online videos for architects and engineers.

So it's, it's got to be way up here.

Master gardener caliber stuff.

And I asked them one day you record these.

25:41

Can I have the copies then?

Oh, sure.

And I can do with them what I want.

Yeah, sure.

Oh my goodness.

So we've created a Patreon page and we have this whole series called The Deep End.

And so people can actually go there and, and pay for that content and get like 2 to 3 hours on rain gardens and drought tolerant gardening and designing with grasses and all sorts of cool jazz.

26:01

And so we hope to be doing more of that as well.

And that's yeah, that's really good for people who are handy and they really want to do this themselves because I I think there's there's nothing like getting out there with your shovel and and getting something done right outside.

So yours is it called deep end or were you just describing it as the deepest this?

26:20

Series is called Deep End.

Yeah, well this series is called The Deep End.

But if if you search on Sean James Consulting on Patreon then you should be able to find me there.

And will also put in notes about where you're going to be giving your talks because your talks are so much fun and your presentations coming up.

26:42

The gardener should know all the CD Saturdays start dropping.

And that's a great time to go to your local CD Saturday.

Meet people who are like you who are nerdy and want seeds and want to grow stuff.

And you, you want to be with like minded people.

26:58

And it was so funny because again, when I was looking you up of late, I've found you.

We're going to be at Niagara College on February 7 doing a topic called Hot under the Collards.

So I thought that was super clever.

Are you, is that are you vegetable fruiting now or is that just a play on words that you?

27:16

Thought was do some of my own stuff.

Yeah, it's actually, ah, yeah.

We, we're, I'm, I'm growing some of my own stuff.

I'm also doing a lot.

It's, it's, it's getting to be unusual that some of my designs won't have some edible plants in them.

I don't understand why we punish plants like they've been bad.

27:34

Do you all go to the corner?

If we mix them into the ornamental garden, a lot of them are beautiful.

And then you have a better predator prey relationship, you have more pollinators support.

So that's a good thing as well.

And I'm doing another thing for Oakville Green on February 10th.

27:51

I'm doing actually the same presentation that people can't make it all the way down to Niagara.

They can come see hot under the college Gardening in a Changing Climate.

That's from the event is from 10:00 to 1:30 and that's a seed swap because you're right, there's tons of these seed swaps going on, which is wonderful and they're really cool events.

28:07

There are other vendors, like it's not just swapping seeds, you know, you'll be able to buy everything from Root rescue.

I don't know how Bob makes it to every event that he does, but like that's a really neat product.

There's all sorts of stuff and just crafty things too.

And you get to be like you say, you get to meet other garden nerds.

28:24

Remember when it was a bad thing?

Yeah, absolutely.

Super cool.

OK, just because you are such a horticulturalist, I have to go through some of your favorite plants.

Now you, I know a lot of your favorite plants because I listen to so much of your of your so many of your presentations.

28:43

How about like a tree that you know, we need more of in Ontario?

I know I'm growing pawpaws, but what else?

Could you?

Would you?

Say great, before I die I want to see zebra swallowtails from Papas.

28:59

They're hosting specialist anyway, so it changes every week.

Last summer I found a promethea moth, which is one of our giant sock months on Tulip tree.

So I'm a big fan of the Tulip tree.

Very specific things feed on the other plant that I a tree that I'd love to see more people growing is black cherry.

29:18

So black cherry doesn't get black knot like Schubert cherry does, and it's brilliant for biodiversity pollinators in the spring birds love the the it's gorgeous, the fall colours spectacular red.

The bark is interesting, in the winter it looks like burnt cornflakes, probably the most distinctive tree in our in our native forest.

29:37

So it's a really good plan and much more tolerant than people think it is.

It is a tree.

It is a free.

Yeah, it's a proper tree for a small.

Urban How big is any other tree?

OK.

And your two, the Tulip trees also quite.

Large it is, but you know I hope work on the Ontario landscape tree planting guide which everyone should look up the Ontario landscape tree planting guide Landscape Ontario and a project which put it together.

30:04

We worked with Vineland Research and Innovation on it and it is fantastic.

And we had a big debate about how big a tree should we be recommending for certain this yard.

I kept coming back to who cares?

So that oak tree lofts over 5 yards.

I, I don't think that's a bad thing.

30:20

And I think society is coming more and more to accept that there are some people are going to get their shots and not enough.

If I can cool 5 properties, if I can provide food for God knows how many thousand creatures, I'm, I'm going to do that.

I don't worry about that at all.

I think we need to think a little bit about the longevity of the tree.

30:37

Because of you, I've seen people plant willows in small lots.

Well, how are you going to get that out of there when it ends its short life that's that's going to be expensive.

So I think we need to care about that a lot.

My new favorite shrub.

Well, news.

A weird word, but silky Dogwood is my favorite Dogwood.

30:55

Yes, I have a.

Favorite.

It's gorgeous blue Jean blue berries that the birds love.

Again, flocks.

Excuse me, pollinators in the spring.

Brilliant fall colour, deep burgundy fall colour.

It does have colourful twigs, although the again, there are deep burgundy.

31:12

They're not blindingly red like red twig Dogwood.

So that's one of my favorite shrubs.

I also quite like Spicebush and I there there are more and more cool things coming on the market.

Sometimes you have to look a little harder.

You have to go to the North American native plant sale sale, North American Native Plant Society sale.

31:31

And there are more and more of these cool little nurseries popping up like Little Otter Tree Farm down in Tillsonburg and Prairie Song in Port Rowan, or if you're out Picton Way, Natural Themes nursery is amazing.

B is just a riot.

31:47

And we talked about COVID.

She almost closed down the native plant nursery.

She was doing more and more market gardening and then COVID hit and the business went crazy.

So you know, there are all these places that you can buy things like Stiffelio trifolia, which is unfortunately named bladdernut.

32:04

Beautiful shrub that has soft yellow flowers all summer long.

Is that a shrub or tree?

International berries as well.

It's a shrub.

Snowberries.

Super pretty pretty pretty berries.

That's a lovely.

Right, and food for the snowberry Clearwing Hummingbird moth.

32:22

Beautiful little creature.

OK, you got it.

Back up a second because you can three and picked and.

What's it called?

Natural theme.

OK, I think.

I think OK.

Frankfort, Ontario.

32:38

Silky Dogwood there.

Yeah, they have really cool stuff that you can't find anywhere else.

OK.

I'm really into dogwoods.

Did you tell me about a Gray Dogwood or is that the same as silky?

Is that different?

Dogwood is lovely.

No, that's different.

Much more drought tolerant and I wouldn't say silky isn't, but Gray is.

32:55

The thing about silky is it doesn't run.

That's why my new favorite grade does run.

And that's OK.

It can be part of your garden maintenance.

There's no such thing as a maintenance garden.

That silky seems to be an all around better plan.

What else do we have here?

Some dwarf stuff?

You've given me some great ideas for dwarf lilacs, right?

33:14

That seem to be, again, romantic favorites.

Do you have one on that you could think of or?

Have you ever grown in New Jersey?

Ohio.

Virginia.

Americana.

I'm winter sowing it right now.

The seeds.

Fingers crossed.

33:29

Seed heads are really cool too.

It's got cool winter interest and it's food for the critically endangered mottled duskywing, which were butterfly that we're just in the process of of re releasing.

And South Coast Gardens Kevin Kavanaugh and Prairie Song are selling the native loop in which we're getting close to re releasing the Karner Blue Butterfly.

33:51

And it's just such a magical looking plant.

And it likes again as well, which surprised me.

Nurseries called.

South Coast Garden.

South Coast, OK.

And you can make, you know, it's so far down there.

Oh dear.

What?

What was me?

No, no, no.

34:07

Go make a weekend of it.

Go to Whistling Gardens and then go over to Tillsonburg to Little Order Tree Farm.

Head down and visit a Prairie Song and then go have perch at the boathouse in Port Rowan.

Then go tour through Long Point and then, you know, get a bed and breakfast and then go visit the Marshfield Patio and Bar, which you're looking over Turkey Point Marsh.

34:31

When you eat you're amazing food and incredible cocktails.

And then go see Kevin at South Coast.

Like there's so much to do down in that neck of the woods.

It's not a long drive.

It's a destination.

Like we, we got to look at these things differently, I think, and sell them differently, frankly.

34:47

Well, Sean, I think that's a tour.

I think that's a tour that you're going to lead, right, because you have so much time.

Really should, actually, that's a great idea.

Well, that's that's on my bucket list.

I want to go to Long Point I I went briefly to to Pelee Island to to see the cactus in bloom.

35:08

This spring I'm speaking at an event down there.

OK, And so I'm it'll be my first time going to to point Pelee and peeling.

Writing and and all of a sudden, you know, my, as my friends know, anytime I see a plant, everyone has to stop and pay attention.

35:24

I'm like, no, this time you really have to stop.

I have never seen this before.

And they were all in bloom.

It was, it was fantastic.

So I I definitely have to go back there, but I've heard a lot about long point for sure.

It's one of my favorite places.

It's UNESCO site, right?

The things that life that you'll see there, from Blandings turtles to red headed woodpeckers.

35:43

And it's OK if you don't care about any of that jazz.

It's one of the longest and most beautiful beaches in the world.

There's something for everyone there.

Surely.

Surely.

Yeah.

Something for everyone.

Indeed.

OK, Anywhere else that you're gonna be that we should let people know about?

Or should I?

Maybe you should send me some stuff and I'll put it in the show notes because I know you're.

36:01

That's a good idea.

I'm also Landscape Ontario offers educational courses and I'm actually doing a bunch of of really good stuff for them.

And in fact I'm just working on a six hour course on the layered landscape.

Doctor Linda Chalker Scott is wonderful.

36:17

She's a friend of mine and she said that the best way to increase biodiversity is to have every layer because different creatures feed at different layers.

So warblers feeding the upper canopy for instance.

So trees, understory trees, shrubs, perennials, ground covers, and then you can even take it to under the soil and under the water.

36:37

So I'm doing a six hour presentation with a little workshop built in buffer Landscape Ontario.

Non members can come to these things as well.

They're more expensive unless if you're not a member, but I've got a whole bunch of stuff coming up for them, several presentations.

OK.

So we so listeners can just go to Landscape Ontario and look for those.

36:55

When are those dropping?

Are those going to be later in the year or are you doing those?

Now, mostly this.

Mostly this winter from now until early, early spring, yeah.

So that's awesome.

Yeah.

I really recommend that listeners tune into at least the YouTube and then if not, go do the deep end dive into Patreon because for not a lot of money, a lot of fantastic content is there on Patreon for sure.

37:20

OK, well, I have to have you back at my mom's house to have a look because I want to change up a few things.

So I will be calling you.

Yeah, it's doing great.

So it's probably gonna be June or July, but I'm going to get an appointment with you sooner rather than later because I know you get so busy through the year.

37:37

And I want to thank you because so much great information.

There's going to be so many great links in my show notes.

And I really encourage everyone to get a eco landscape expert like Sean on their property and do some good work for nature because as we all know, nature needs guardians.

37:54

Thanks so much, Sean.

That's been really.

Fun.

Thank you.