0:06
Soil microbes live in your garden.
Fungi, bacteria, protists and nanotubes.
They're under foot.
What are they and why should you care?
At 400 times magnification, you can get to know them better.
0:21
What microbial life is active?
Making soil connections to cycle plant nutrients, support plant health and make for resilient plants in your garden.
Hi, this is the Garden Shift, and I'm your host, Tina Cicerone.
As a certified Soil lab technician and consultant from the Elaine Ingham Soil Food Web School, Colleen Dempster knows soil and has studied hundreds of soil samples from gardens, forests and agricultural lands.
0:54
Grounded in science, rooted in ethics, Rewild Soil Labs and Uxbridge is a gardener's dream resource.
Building your soil health starts with biology, principles that many of us know from permaculture.
1:10
If you're going to make a tea or extract, best you make it right.
Colleen will show you how through her workshops and site consultations.
After all, she is a compost queen.
Hi, Colleen, welcome to the Garden Shift.
1:31
Thanks for having me, Tina.
You can't imagine how excited I am to have a certified lab technician on the garden shift.
This is a first.
I like to surround myself with really smart scientists and then maybe, hopefully all sound a bit smarter.
1:47
So let's start with who you are, where you're working, and I really am interested in your certifications that you got with Doctor Elaine Ingham as well.
Great.
Um, so I am a certified soil food web laboratory technician.
2:06
Bit of a mouthful there.
And that's through Doctor Elaine Ingham Soil Food Web School, which is an online 4 course, foundational courses for background in soil microbiology and the microscope and making compost, compost teas and compost extracts.
2:29
And then I did some extra schooling to hone in on the microscope and get that certification so I can accept samples.
I accept samples from Ontario, but I look at at soils from different countries when I'm traveling and people have sent me samples from Quebec, for example.
2:51
But really I like to focus on what kind of microbes are we finding in Ontario soils so I can give advice that's more relevant to Ontario gardeners and farmers.
And, and kind of just like breakdown that ivory tower of the scientific literature being kind of too confusing for the average gardener to understand and explain why these microbes are important, what's in their soil, what's missing and how they can get it back.
3:22
So that's kind of what the microscope analysis starts to show us.
And then with a little bit of extra experience that I built up over the last six or seven years and more training with the Soil Food Web School and the consultant program, I'm working more towards a holistic understanding of the chemistry, the physical properties and the biological properties in the soil.
3:48
To help advise on how to bring a well-rounded and sustainable gardening or soil restoration program to gardeners, even arborists, and like I said, farmers as well.
So basically anyone working with the soil, we really want them to understand that soil is more than just the chemistry or the chemical analysis they get from a lab.
4:14
And there's this whole side of microbiology that is mostly invisible to the naked eye and largely forgotten.
And, um, if we can work in a holistic nature with soil, we don't need as many chemical additives.
We don't need to weed as much.
4:30
We can actually like, let nature do more of what it intended to do and let the, you know, the beneficial insects come in and take care of the detrimental ones and everything just work in harmony and ultimately be less work for us and better for the environment.
4:45
So that's my goal and it's very exciting and inspiring, I must say.
Yeah, and I and I really want to make the idea of soil more accessible to the average gardener.
Um, I think often we think we speak up feeding the soil and you know, gardeners might be like, well, I'm feeding the plants.
5:06
So that whole, you know, connection that we have to things that we don't see is really difficult, right.
I think that when I first started seeing your videos and actually seeing these microorganisms, it was a kind of a light went off for me.
5:25
It's like, yeah, now I'm not just talking about a micro arrays and I'm seeing it and we can go through all that.
But before we get to that and your beautiful microscope, I want to talk about just soil profiles and what you're seeing in Ontario, maybe specifically if you have done a lot of studies in urban centres, If it's if what you're seeing is really, you know, profiles that are degraded, profiles that you know, maybe don't have the right balance.
5:54
So what?
What are you seeing generally?
Um, well, so I've looked at about 50, um, forest samples.
We'll actually 74 samples in in.
High detail and documented the number of bacteria, fungi, protists and nematodes.
6:10
So that's what we count in our soil analysis.
So I've looked at yeah, 70 or so, 4 soils, about 150 farm soils and about 50 to 60 garden soils, as well as lots of compost and and vermicompost.
6:32
So worm manure and what I found is actually in contrast with what Doctor Elaine Ingham has published as desirable ranges for microbes.
And I was really confused by that at first.
Basically it looks like all of our soils are extremely degraded.
6:50
We just don't have near the fungal to bacterial ratio that a forest would call for, for example.
And a lot of it makes sense though, like it could be true and it could explain why we don't have the healthiest, fastest growing trees in urban settings.
7:09
We also know there's trouble with like the urban heat island effect and pollution and compaction and and a whole bunch of other struggles that trees and other plants have in urban settings.
But even in the valleys and the forests around where I live in Uxbridge, they seemed degraded.
7:29
They didn't have a fungal to bacterial ratio over 100 it, which is what Doctor Lane Ingham says a deciduous forest should have to be stress free.
And again, I look around the forest around Uxbridge here and I see evidence of lots of pests and disease, invasive species, um, different colours in the leaves that indicate potential viral or fungal infections.
7:56
And I wonder if that is because this area was logged in the 40s, therefore saying basically all of southern Ontario was logged at some point.
And maybe that is disturbance enough to alter the soil food web community long term.
8:16
Because microbes don't rebound that quickly, especially fungi.
It takes years to grow fungi, just like it takes years to grow a forest.
They work symbiotically.
The trees put down leaves in the fall which are food for the fungi, and then the fungi grow and then the tree grows, right?
8:40
And that takes 100 years or more.
So that that could be part of the reason.
But my other hypothesis is that maybe Doctor Elaine Ingham's numbers are suited better towards Oregon, United States, where she lived and did most of her research.
8:59
And a lot of the starting of the Soil food web school comes out of Oregon and California and Texas areas.
So their soil is different than ours.
If I'm going to give advice to OR or at least benchmark my clients soil against something, I feel like it shouldn't be unattainable averages that are going to make them feel bad.
9:25
Because like a lot of people are using organic principles and I've worked with a lot of permaculture organic farmers that have been trying for years and haven't used chemicals in years.
So again, is it because the soil has been disturbed a long time ago and it takes that long?
9:43
Or is it because we need to understand Ontario soils better because we have a different climate than where most of the data is coming?
From yeah, probably a bit of both, right.
Let's talk a little bit more about, um, someone having like a degraded dead soil.
10:00
OK.
So there's not a lot of microbial activity going on in the soil.
So that's interesting.
That could be years, right, for that to build up to levels which are healthy and balanced in horticulture.
10:17
You know, there's this big thing about leaving the leaves for the last whatever, 10 years, right?
And you're saying that's a starting point?
Yeah, I always encourage people who who are ready to dive into the world of soil microbiology, firstly, they need to understand it's not like a Band-Aid fix.
10:35
It doesn't happen quickly.
It's not like you can put some great compost or compost to your extract down and your problems are solved and you do that once a year.
You actually have to blend the the principles of permaculture in short.
So that's reducing any kind of chemicals that are being used, reducing compaction, retaining living roots year round.
11:00
So that can be with cover cropping or like waiting to pull weeds.
Of course you want to pull weed seeds off, but if you can leave plants in the soil, you're protecting that top layer of soil from UV exposure, compaction from heavy rain, and providing a shady, moist habitat for soil life.
11:24
So it really comes back to that holistic perspective of there's the chemistry, the physical properties and the biology that come together to make soil health.
And we can't fix it with just chemistry because that's when you have basically you use a fertilizer, say for example, a high nitrogen fertilizer to grow your plants, but there's salt in that.
11:46
And that salt actually destroys the soil microbiology.
So now you don't have the biology.
And heck, you could even have compacted soil, like farmers who have been tilling soil year after year.
First when they when they first turn, the soil at top layer becomes really fertile, but only briefly.
12:06
It off gases all of the nutrients, all the microbes are an organic matter get fluffed up to the top and they might have a few good years, but then all of that is lost.
It can erode off, it can off passed.
The microbes die because they're exposed to the air and now they become dependent on a chemical fertilizer and and also the soil will become compacted if they keep having to drive a tractor over it again and again.
12:30
So yeah, those principles of permaculture building, build it and they will come.
So retain or promote that organic matter the the cover cropping as I mentioned diverse crops ideally.
So this works really well in garden settings.
12:49
You can create a a lush, natural, diverse environment with your plants and that will foster a healthy soil food web.
OK, that's really cool.
OK, let's talk about a generally, I know this is I'm making you generalize, but a good profile.
13:08
So what would a good profile have at it?
You know the, the adage of, you know, 1g of healthy soil can contain up to 1 billion microorganisms.
Give us a break that down a little bit for us.
OK, so I'll put on my consultant like hat, which is bringing that physical, chemical and biological, the whole picture and also what people are capable of.
13:31
So if we're talking gardeners in your gardener, say you take a soil profile.
So the first thing you're kind of considering is the compaction level.
You can test that with some kind of a pointy object.
Like if you ever get a hold of like a skewer, you can stick that in the ground.
13:48
Just see how far it'll go.
And if it's really compacted, sometimes you'll need to take a shovel in there and turn the soil for the first year or two just to break apart that really bad compaction.
So we want to make sure your compaction is OK.
You do want to do a chemical soil analysis.
14:04
I really think that that's just really good practice to get a baseline understanding when you first decide that you want to get into gardening because that's going to inform many years ahead.
You know, you're starting point, you know if you're improving or not, and you want to look for things like pH around 7 to 6.5 depending on what you want to grow.
14:28
But most plants like that neutral to slightly acidic pH.
Also really important is the organic matter content in our fields and like in our farm fields we we are down to about 2% organic matter but we want to be at 5.
14:45
But what I found that in gardens in urban settings but mostly in peoples residential properties are organic matter is good.
It is around five, 6% because people have been adding mulch, compost, letting plants decompose on site.
15:05
You know, they're, they're doing a lot already.
So and then the third thing is that microbiology and as I mentioned, I kind of divided my data set into fields, forest and residential gardens.
And residential gardens were actually really good.
15:22
They were at much better than the fields.
They had higher fungi.
You don't want too much bacteria.
You want like a middle range of bacteria so that when you're looking at the ratio of fungi to bacteria, they should be about equal.
15:39
If it's bacterial dominant, that speaks to an environment that is conducive to growing weeds and but also annual plants.
And then the more fungi that you get, the more complex the plant relationship.
So more perennials, more trees.
15:55
But in a garden, we usually want to try to foster such diversity that we're not just growing grasses and weeds.
Your turf can have mostly bacteria in it, but in the garden bed we want to see about equal parts bacteria, fungi and we and we definitely want to see protozoa and nematodes because they're the upper level of the soil food web that eat the bacteria and fungi and poop out the nutrients in a plant available form.
16:23
So they're responsible for nutrient cycling and giving the plants everything they need.
Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, silicone, boron, magnesium, manganese, they do it all.
OK, Protozoa.
And what was the other one you said?
Nematodes and nematodes at the upper level.
16:41
OK, I saw those in your videos for sure.
Yeah, I mean, the protozoa are just single celled microbes like amoeba and fraudulence.
Really, really simple.
It's not like they have mouths, but they're actually predators in the soil food web.
They're like the equivalent of our carnivores and are grazers, too, like cows.
17:01
Like, they go out there and they eat the fungi and they eat the bacteria, and then they poop.
And you know how poop is a fertilizer?
Yeah.
So it's the same thing happening in a microscopic scale in the root zone of the plants.
Yeah.
And then and then they're actually responsible for more than just nutrient cycling.
17:21
They also keep pests like pests nematodes in check.
OK, wow.
So a lot of talk now about the mycorrhizal fungi and their very specific, uh, relationships, right, with, with different plants.
17:39
Do you do you measure that in a soil analysis?
Actually, I'm I'm glad you asked, we can't detect if the fungi that we see is my carrizal or saprophytic.
Saprophytic fungi is one that is a decomposer, so they're turning the leaves into compost, breaking things down.
18:00
But my carrizal fungi are forming.
They're the ones that really form the close symbiotic relationship with plant roots.
Like they actually fuse into the plant roots and act as a highway to transport nutrients into the plant.
18:17
OK, so why can't you detect that, but you can detect the other one?
They actually look the same.
And under the microscope, we're just working with morphology.
We can only see what things look like.
We're we're our biomass estimates are pretty rough estimates, I have to say.
18:34
And that is one of the challenges in really helping like the soil food web nerds, as I call them.
But my colleagues and the schooling that I've done, it's, it's a, it's a roadblock because we're only seeing one part of the puzzle there.
18:50
There is a case for DNA analysis, which tells you the exact species, and that's the only way you can know for sure what you have.
But it's expensive and it doesn't give you biomass.
So the microscope we count and we, we can give you those fungal to bacterial ratios and we know how many micrograms per grams of each you have and how many nematodes of different types you have.
19:15
We can, we can sort of tell what the nematodes if it's a beneficial nematode or root feeding nematode by its mouth part.
So we don't know the species, but we have a pretty good idea if it's a good guy or a bad guy.
And that's what Doctor Elaine Ingham is kind of famous for saying is these these good guys and these bad guys.
19:34
And we just, we want to foster a diverse environment where the good guys outnumber the bad guys because that's how nature does it.
There's always a few so-called pests, but are they really pests or is that just our perception of them?
And is that just because it's a not a very healthy environment?
19:51
And that's an indicator like, for example, the root feeding them a toad thrives in monoculture settings.
So it's a big problem in farms where they're growing all the same thing.
And then they get this root knot nematode, they call it.
And yet if we have diverse different types of nematodes, including predatory nematodes, the predator nematodes actually prefer to eat the root feeding nematodes and so they keep that population in check.
20:22
OK, so it's OK to see one or two root feeding nematodes in the soil as long as you have the good guy nematodes as?
Well, OK, So what about like on in a farm setting?
That's interesting to me.
If you don't have enough of the good guys, What is that?
20:38
A.
Is that when you bring in an inoculant or an extract like?
Ah, yes, yes, um, you can buy like these.
Basically it's like a test tube full of like a couple thousand of one species of well studied predatory nematode that will eat the root feeding nematodes and there are ones that eat grubs as well.
21:00
So gardeners will buy that and put that in their garden and that's cool, that works.
They found that it works.
But I always hesitate to introduce large numbers of a single species because of the invasive species problem and also the the vast unknown about these microscopic organisms.
21:17
So another hole in this field is the unknown.
Yeah.
And we are just scratching the surface and figuring out what these different microbes do.
They can do different things in different environments, too, whether they're happy, you know, in aerobic setting where there's oxygen, they're happier, healthier.
21:38
Some of these fungi can become a problem if there's not enough air in the soil.
They can switch into being a plant pathogen or even a human pathogen.
So back to that inoculant question, The reason I I think I will always be an advocate of the soil, food web and working with compost is that we're fostering A diverse native microbial community, which is natural.
22:08
I don't condone getting compost from across across the country.
I mean, some people are buying these bugs in a jug from Australia and they're single species or maybe just a handful of species that have been well studied.
So it might work in some settings.
22:26
But to release them into the wild in our gardens in Ontario?
Do we really know?
No, no one said.
Yeah, for sure.
That sounds a little bit like we don't need anymore invasive species here.
We have enough.
I guess the idea of inoculants came to mind for me to ask you is because I'm starting to see now I grow a lot of native plants people selling the the seed within inoculant.
22:56
Yeah, yeah, I think it's a great idea.
I would love to see how this goes.
I I want to see more studies, but in theory that should work.
So my specialty is making compost tea and compost extract, which are liquid versions of a homemade compost.
23:15
And I say homemade just to emphasize that it's locally made.
So we're getting the local microbes and we're using diverse feedstock using Doctor Elaine Ingham's methods for hot composting or vermicomposting with worms or even there are a few other great kinds of composting that will foster the native soil food web.
23:36
And then you can turn that into a liquid amendment and you can do a seed soak, then dry the seeds or plant them right away.
But you can dry the seeds and plant them at a later date.
And the idea is they, they are coded with beneficial biology that will start to work as soon as they germinate, as soon as there's moisture in the soil, they will start to grow.
23:56
And the first thing that touches the endosperm, I guess of the seed will be a beneficial say fungi instead of a detrimental 1.
We we're in a battle in the soil against detrimental pests.
I see my seats, which are water molds, which are responsible for like root rot and powdery mildew.
24:19
And they're in the soil too.
So that's a big idea behind foliar applications with these liquid amendments is to cover them with the beneficial microbes.
Bacteria especially cover the whole E surface because, you know, we have bacteria in our gut.
24:35
We have there's fungal spores in the air.
Bacteria microbes are everywhere, so let's try to make sure that they're the good ones and protect and build a wall so that the bad ones can't penetrate the the new seed or the old plant.
OK, let's back up a little bit and start with compost because again, I have watched a lot of you are building compost piles and I'm fascinated by it.
25:03
So you last year were doing something called a mother pile.
Can you just talk a little bit about that?
That was actually this year.
That was OK June 28th around because I had double checked the date, but Doctor Elaine Ingham passed away this year and her birthday would have been June 26th.
25:27
I hope I'm getting it right that it wasn't July, but I think it was June 26th.
So the Soil Food Web School and a couple other of my mentors had proposed a community thing where we build an intentional pile in memory of Doctor Elaine Ingham.
And yeah, like, building compost piles is a lot of fun and we can do it for different purposes.
25:48
Like I see it as my exercise.
Yeah, and, and it's an art.
I see it as an art because it's gotten to the point where I'm like a little bit of greens, a little bit of Browns and I eyeball it.
But initially it's good to actually measure things out in buckets so you get the right proportion of materials to get that compost pile of heat up.
26:08
Or, or if you're building a Johnson Sioux, you don't want to heat up, but you do want a lot of wood chips and brown material.
And we could talk all day about how to make a great compost.
And that's one of my favorite things because it's really the foundation of all of these soil food web inoculations.
26:27
Yeah, so I want you to talk about why it's super important for gardeners to start their own compost, because I think with ecological gardening, we want to stop bringing so much stuff in, buying stuff, bringing it in, buying stuff, bringing in, throwing stuff out on the curb for yard waste.
26:46
Let's use what we have.
So let's use my example because it's really pathetic and you can help me.
I have a woodland setting, so I don't have a lot of sun on my property.
But I said, you know what?
I've got a lot of chopped waste and a lot of stuff.
And if it takes longer, it takes longer.
27:02
Well, I've never measured the temperature and that's probably tell me that's my problem.
But after I would say, I think I started around when I was doing more gardening during COVID.
So it's an open, open pit, like an open area, right?
27:18
Yeah, right by my my fence and gets a little bit of sun.
Not a lot of doctor, I'd say.
And I'm throwing all my yard waste there.
I'm not throwing any kitchen stuff, though, because I'm worried about all the raccoons that I don't want to feed in my neighborhood.
27:34
So after three years, I can push back everything, have gorgeous soil.
I'm wondering, is that just from the forest floor or did I make that soil?
But I do get a few buckets like every year.
A beautiful compost.
Should I?
Yeah.
What should I be doing?
27:49
Should I be moving it out somewhere?
I don't know.
Or is that good enough?
It sounds like you're doing a great job adding mostly yard trimmings and a lot of brown material is actually going to make a really fungal dominant compost and it's going to be inoculated with the local microbes.
28:09
And I do hesitate to add a lot of kitchen scraps for the reason that you said attracting pests.
But also there could be herbicides and fungicides on those banana peels.
I mean, I still do it.
Nature, like it does get broken down.
28:25
The bacteria will break down the toxins even, but it could take longer and you'll want to wait longer to use that compost.
Everyone's situation is unique, which is why this like consulting training is gonna be like really useful because it depends on what feedstock you have available, what your shade is like, and there's so many little troubleshooting nuances.
28:50
But in, in your case, well, in any case, you want to get about 50% brown material.
So that includes leaves, which luckily you could probably have a lot of.
And you might want to run over the leaves with a lawn mower before you rake them up.
29:08
I do like the idea of leaving your leaves on the lawn or in the garden bed for pollinators to hibernate in and to also return that organic matter to the soil.
But sometimes it's not breaking down fast enough in the garden beds.
And maybe you can reserve some of those leaves to use in your compost pile.
29:27
I really like to go around in the fall and collect leaf bags off the sides of the streets.
You only need maybe 3.
It depends.
It really depends, once again, how large this compost pile is.
Are you going to be hand turning it with a pitchfork or do you have one of those outdoor bins, all that stuff.
29:44
Right.
But so you're doing a medium sized pile like it sounds like you're doing.
And yeah, so you want 50% leafy material, about 25 to 30% green material.
So that's your fresh garden trimmings, things that still have green to them and good moisture content.
30:07
And that indicates that it still has a good amount of nitrogen.
And that nitrogen is what the bacteria love to feed on 1st.
And that's what drives the heat up in the pile that gets the whole soil food web excited and partying and breaking everything down, right?
30:22
It kick starts the decomposition.
And a lot of people make the mistake of not having enough nitrogen in the pile.
Then that's why it goes too slowly.
OK, but then there's a secret ingredient to really kick start the pile.
And that's your what we call high nitrogen.
30:39
Or for some people, they just jump straight to manure.
But it's, it's not always manure.
It can be beer mash from a local brewery, so grains and seeds are really high nitrogen.
It can be, um, alfalfa pellets or corn, cracked corn from a feed store.
31:01
If you, just you, you just want to boost that nitrogen and get that thing going and you don't need much that you only need 10 to 15% of.
OK, so I realize my percentage is probably didn't add up to 100.
And that's because it's not an exact science.
It's an art and a science.
31:18
And then the the final really important ingredient is moisture and you want it to be at like 50% the whole time.
Oh, really?
That way.
Yeah, you want to be able to.
I say lift up a tarp because I usually put some kind of cover over the pile because it's that important to keep the moisture in.
31:39
So a tarp or a cotton bed sheet will help keep moisture in the pile.
It will also help keep weed seeds out and UV off of the pile.
So when you lift that that cover and you reach your hand in and you dig off the first layer because that usually does dry out.
31:54
But that next layer should have decent moisture so that when you squeeze it in your hand, you can actually hear squishiness.
And if it's not, then just set your hose to a shower setting and shower for five seconds or 15 seconds based on how how dry it is.
32:12
And then give it three months and in about 3 months and you, you can add to it if that's practical for you.
You just got to turn it once in a while, but in about 3 months it should be breaking down enough that you could potentially use some of it in the garden or you'll still see bits of the plants and things that you put in it.
32:35
But that's OK that as long as it heated up and you kept, kept it oxygenated, oxygenated.
If it starts to smell bad, it's time to turn it.
If it gets really hot, you have to turn it more often.
So, umm, so the right balance of the Browns.
32:54
So that's the woody material, the greens and the high nitrogen moisture around 50%.
And finally aeration.
If it starts to smell, you've got a problem.
So yeah, turn it, maybe add some more leaves so it's less wet.
33:10
And then really the good stuff that looks like broken down compost will take about a year to a year and a half.
OK, so I have another, you know, more of a traditional compost that I got from my region.
They, you know, so we're selling them for like 35 bucks or whatever.
33:28
So that's in its second year.
And I opened the trap on the bottom to see what happened, what was happening after, um, it was actually and it didn't go through a whole year.
I didn't do anything with it.
And so the next spring and all of this, which looked like sand, came out of the bottom and it was filled with ants.
33:51
Yeah, I, I just had that same experience in my mother pile.
Um, so that that pile, I don't think we really talked about what that was.
It was one of those like intentional piles with the goal of the dedication to Wayne Ingham, but also it has this other purpose and that is as an inoculant for all other piles, like a mother starter dough.
34:10
Exactly.
So it was like really biodiverse.
It's it's it actually ends up getting recom posted.
So it didn't matter that it wasn't super hot and cooked the weed seeds and everything.
Is that still going to happen?
The goal there was biodiversity and we put some funky ingredients in because that that's the goal.
34:28
Like you can put you put a little bit of eggs in there, shell and all, if you want.
You can.
Everything should break down, a little bit of dog hair, pepper, whatever.
And then, yeah, I dug in and I saw all this sand and then I saw all these ants and I realized what they were doing was they're actually moving into the pile from underneath and pulling in sand with them.
34:49
Is that a bad thing?
Now, a little bit of sand in the compost isn't a bad thing.
A little bit like probably not a bad thing either.
I think they're acting as decomposers, shredders, grazers, breaking down whatever kind of maybe there was some food in there, like maybe some tomatoes, I'm not sure.
35:05
But they were finding warmth and maybe some nutrients.
So ants aren't the biggest pest.
Places in like the tropics have bigger problems.
Like like, I don't know.
I mean, even here rats could be a problem.
OK, so I love those.
35:21
Yeah.
Do you think, do you think the pile might have been too dry and that's what cut?
Yeah, OK.
Actually, I would have to double check that whether it was too moist that encouraged ants or to dry that encouraged ants.
Yeah, I, I think, yeah, I have a feeling it's, it's too dry because when I find an Ant hill in my lawn, which is like a freedom lawn, everything grows in my lawn.
35:47
I sometimes just leave a soaker hose there and they kind of move off.
Yeah.
They're not right where my dog's playing, right.
So yeah.
Kind of like that you want to see when you open up the bottom of the compost bin is worms, rolly pollies and millipedes, maybe even some of those almost microscopic springtails, those little white bugs.
36:10
Those are all beneficial soil food web helpers that indicate a a moist compost, some something that's that's very active and really good for your soil.
OK, let's talk.
Let's move into talking about your compost tea.
36:26
The liquid, I guess, is a biological amendment right?
Yeah.
So I'll start off by defining what a compost is and how that differs from a compost extract.
So in making a compost tea, you're using a little bit of compost, a fair bit of water.
36:44
Let's say you're working in a 5 gallon bucket.
You're going to only use about two to four cups of compost in the 20 liter bucket.
So that's your 5 gallon bucket.
You don't need to fill it up to the top.
So maybe you've got 17 liters and you're going to put your compost in a compost tea bag, which allows microbes to pass through the mesh but holds all the chunks inside the bag.
37:11
OK.
And then you're going to aerate the water, so that keeps the microbes aerobic, because I started to mention that anaerobic microbes tend to be pathogens, and then aerobic ones are the ones that live on the surface of leaves and soil where there's air and the beneficial ones.
37:28
And then the final ingredient for compost tea is some type of food to feed the microbes.
OK.
Then over the course of 24 hours, they're going to reproduce like crazy.
Bacteria reproduce every 20 minutes.
37:44
They can double their population and I ideal setting so it gets so super concentrated.
But mostly with bacteria because those are the ones that are really reproducing and they're eating that microbial food, which might be some fish hydrolysate humic acid or say soluble kelp, something that has liquefied in the water that has a bit of sugar to it.
38:10
And that's going to just, yeah, feed the bacteria, feed the protozoa as well.
And now you've got this super concentrated soil food web that still contains fungi, nematodes, protozoa and bacteria.
So the complete soil food web really concentrated and you can apply a little bit on a lot of land.
38:32
So it's really good for, yeah, upping the value of this high quality compost that you have.
And because the microbes have been reproducing, they produce glues like bacteria produce biofilms and fungi produce glomalin, which help them stick to surfaces.
38:49
So compost tea is the ideal amendment for fully your application foliar.
Um, so leaf applications in orchards is especially important because apple, cherry, all the fruits, they're really prone to foliar pests and diseases.
39:08
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So covering the whole leaf surface, top and bottom with beneficial microbes in that compost tea that are going to stick to that leaf surface and then say the next moisture level event comes through that encourages powdery mildew.
39:26
So like this fall due that we're having in the morning, that's when you could get a a fungal or viral pathogen on the leaf surface unless you already have it covered with the beneficial bacteria and then they have a harder time to get on there.
OK.
39:41
OK.
And it's organic.
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, we're not certifying things as organic yet in this field because it's too hard.
Every time we make a compost tea, it's different depending on the compost itself mostly, but also the age of the compost, the ambient temperature of the weather are specific Brewer and the way that it it you know how strong the air is.
40:05
Like it's always going to be a different microbial community in a compost tea, which is why it's so important to double check it with a microscope to make sure that you didn't brew any pathogens and to make sure that you still do have the complete soil food web, especially if you're a seller.
40:20
And you want to guarantee things to people?
What else do I have to have so many questions?
I'm gonna tell you about Compost Extra.
OK, yeah.
Do you extract now?
Extract, it's, it's actually in some ways better than compost tea in a lot of ways, in my opinion.
40:38
I think compost tea was a bit of a buzzword and it has a lot of misunderstanding behind it too, because people will make like a nettle tea or a manure tea even.
And it's just gone by so many different names that we need to clarify.
Like I'm talking about aerated compost tea.
40:55
Um, so now the difference between a T and an extract is with an extract, you're still taking that good compost and putting it in a compost tea bag.
So like a fine mesh, like it could be a cheese cloth, or it could be like an official 400 Micron compost tea bag, and you're not adding microbial foods and you're not bubbling it for 24 hours.
41:23
Instead, you're just simply dunking this bag of compost in the water, giving it a massage, breaking up the chunks, and now all the microbes are flowing out of the bag into that water.
And you can just go straight to putting it into a watering can and water it on your plants.
41:42
So you can inoculate your garden with the whole, the complete soil food web that was in that compost, but in a liquid form.
So it's easier to spread.
And you can still add some microbial foods like like I mentioned, liquid kelp or powdered kelp, something with like good nutrients in it, even molasses, and then put whatever other organic amendment into that liquid form if you want and then spray it out.
42:11
OK, so you're talking about ease of use as opposed to just grabbing compost and doing, you know, amendment top top dressing around your garden?
Yeah.
So maybe make the extract is ease of use as opposed to the solid compost.
42:26
And like I said, you can blend it with other liquid amendments that you're putting out.
Um, yeah, it really is about ease of use when it comes to compost extract.
OK.
So what if?
You are a gardener and your compost has gone anaerobic.
42:46
How do you know and what are the problems there?
Your first indicator is smell.
So if it smells like vomit or sulphur, it's gone anaerobic and it could actually be dangerous.
It could be harboring salmonella or E coli as well as plant pathogens.
43:07
So what you should do is you should deal with it right away.
So, so if it's sitting in a bucket of water, you know, we want to flip that over and get the water out.
Then you can add, say you were collecting leaf bags, you can add a whole bunch of leaves to that to help soak up that extra water and turn it around.
43:24
But the nice thing with nature is overtime.
Everything heals.
Give it time and it can turn into a good compost again.
So smell is your first symptom of anaerobic OK?
It would, it could.
43:41
It's producing alcohols which will burn the plants.
So you could see that effect in the garden and under the microscope.
What we're seeing in those anaerobic samples is those water molds that I mentioned, those UMI seats, they're called and we'll see concerning bacteria.
43:59
So ones that could be human pathogens, ones that like have these Corkscrew movements and they're very telltale, like this is not aerobic, this is anaerobic, These are potential pathogens.
And we see this other microbe called the ciliate that's a really good swimmer, and it's a good swimmer because it's an aquatic environment.
44:19
So when you see too many ciliates in a compost sample that like say I received for example, I say, yeah, you don't want to make a compost tea with this because you're going to grow water mold.
Right, OK, I'm calling.
44:35
Do you have any experience with UMM coming across jumping worms in Ontario?
Think knock on wood, I haven't yet but I do know that they are moving through like Ontario.
44:50
Like they're in Hamilton and they're getting towards Uxbridge.
And I've used the EDM maps app for invasive species to to see pictures to prove it to myself that yes, they are being identified in Ontario.
45:05
And since I became aware of that a few years ago, I stopped accepting materials from outside my immediate area.
I pretty much source all of my compost feedstock on site, especially because I'm selling it to people.
So I don't want to transport jumping worm to somebody else.
45:24
So I don't want it on my property.
It's not here yet.
But if it did come, as you know, all all of these things can move around and likely will come.
It's going to be something that we all have to adapt to.
It's it's pretty much impossible to stop or remove.
45:41
So I just hate to say it that it might be a a new invasive species that that gets naturalized.
I know.
And then eventually nature adapts.
Yeah, yeah.
I just was wondering whether you've ever found them in a a compost sample?
45:59
I have not.
OK, good.
If I wanted to do a soil sample and send it to you, let's say for my big vegetable garden, is there a best time for you to be looking at a soil profile?
Absolutely, and I'm so glad you're asking the best questions.
46:16
This is this cover.
This touches on a really important thing to understand about soil biology.
It does the best in moist conditions and cooler conditions, spring and fall.
During a drought Midsummer, a lot of these microbes will go into their dormant state, same as in the winter.
46:38
They go like the the protests go into cyst form, the fungi go into spore form.
And when I look at it under the microscope, I don't count those because I don't technically know if they'll ever come out of dormancy.
So I highly recommend getting your soil tested or your compost tested in the spring and in the fall.
46:59
And the same with applying the biological inoculants.
They're gonna do better when they get applied on a moist soil versus during a drought Midsummer.
Like don't even bother.
I don't.
I don't really think you should bother with inoculants in the summer, but I mean it's totally up to you.
47:17
It wouldn't hurt, but it's best to do it in the spring and fall, OK?
So just getting going to close up a little with a couple questions about your services.
So as a consultant, would you come out to investigate what people are doing with compost and stuff like that, or are you more wanting people to send stuff to you?
47:43
Yeah, as a consultant, I am very much interested in coming out to peoples properties and doing a holistic package.
It's a lot easier for me to understand the state of the soil if I can see it.
I have tools like a penetrometer to check for compaction.
47:59
I know exactly how to take the samples for the microscope analysis.
Even though I have instructions on my website and people can send me soil samples, I like to do it, especially just the first time to show people if they want to send me more in the future, they can.
But I can do it.
48:15
And then I can take extra to send it off to like A&L labs for the chemistry analysis.
And I can look at other things and just get a better idea of the site history from people.
And, and this the more you know, it's like being a detective and the more information you have, the better you understand what's happening and the better advice you can give.
48:33
So I will travel in Southern Ontario.
I have a Hiawassee extractor, which is a really nice compost extractor.
Let's make compost extract.
So I put that in the back of my pickup truck and I can make it on the spot to, you know, lessen the number of trips that I make.
48:52
You know, I can, I can do that too.
So a bit of applications I don't like have a tractor, but oh, all the time garden settings, you just need a a watering can to apply.
So yeah, I can do that with that.
49:09
Yeah, that's a fantastic service.
And then I would assume that once we you provided client with the data, you could help them interpret it.
Sometimes a lot of numbers.
I know.
And and again, like that's that ivory tower.
49:25
It's it's a newer field.
There's still a lot of unknowns like giving a client the standard that report, the standard report that comes from the soil food web school gives you these biomass numbers and you're like, what does this mean?
Well, I do use my, my, uh, what do I call it?
49:42
The meta analysis of all the Ontario, all of the soil samples that I've ever done and I can benchmark where they are compared to that.
So if there is a garden soil, I can say compared to other garden soils, this is where you're at.
And then I can also recommend what kind of a compost or compost tea or extract would boost the missing piece of the soil food web.
50:05
And I'll be honest, it's not always gonna be restore the soil food web right away.
It's not always compost to your extract.
Sometimes it's let's do mulch.
This year's mulch does wonders for the soil.
And, you know, take a let's see the results of the chemistry analysis and figure out if there's an imbalance in the salt concentration in the soil that needs to be addressed before we try compost tea.
50:27
OK, so many cool things.
I also noticed on your website that you have like this 5 gallon bucket kit for team proofing.
So for people who are really advanced just want to get at it.
I mean, that looks amazing.
Too.
Yeah, it's, it's pretty basic, like you can provide your own 5 gallon bucket, but the idea is this airlift manifold is really gentle for brewing microbes without like splattering them.
50:50
You don't want too strong of an air pump.
Like there's a lot of nuances.
A lot of people do it themselves and that's great.
But yeah, if people need to know, like all of my years of research, what I found to work the best is these Airlift Brewers.
And um, one airlift Brewer will produce 5 gallons of compost tea, which is enough to cover about 1/4 of an acre.
51:13
So it's probably more than most people need to be honest.
But you know, if you if you have some friends, some market gardeners might might be worth getting your hands dirty.
This has been so interesting, Colleen, thank you so much.
51:28
I gotta put notes about your website.
There's some great videos that all include and if you want to get a hold of Colleen, all the information will be there.
I'm going to go out and turn my compost pile or wetter or something.
I'm just like exercise, exercise.
51:44
Lift with the knees, not the back.
Exactly, exactly.
Spent a lot of fun.
Yeah, lot of fun.
Thank you, Tina.
And remember, fall is a great time for making compost.
Excellent.
Take care.
You too.
Bye.
